Fri 30 Apr 2010
World to Arizona; Wrong!
Posted by Canada / Pat (B/P editor) under Balkers
[29] Comments
If you reached this Balkingpoints.com article by direct external link, stop by the front page for an incredible satellite view of the earth in rotation!
You’d think maybe Americans would understand the United States Constitution better than a Canadian!
Arizona’s new law, the so called SB1070, which is already a hash marked topic of scorn on Twitter, tells police officers to order persons to produce proof of their citizenship if they “suspect” them of being illegal immigrants. So that makes this law arbitrary and subjective on it’s face, and a violation of the American 4th Amendment against unreasonable search and seizure. (police need probable cause first, which is verified before or after the fact by independent judiciary). You don’t get to detain, search, pull over or arrest anyone on unanchored suspicions!
The firestorm of protest from those who understand that distinction, (and why it is an essential part of free societies which are not police states), has been nothing short of awesome over the last 2 or 3 days. City councils passing boycotts of Arizona merchants, conventions in Phoenix cancelling, and the state made a laughingstock of bigotry on the Internet.
So vast and speedy was the rebuke that the Arizona legislature passed this attempted fix only today. (see below) Which pretty much says, “but wait, the police can’t consider ethnicity or race in forming their suspicions!” Righto. Everyone feels better now!
Arizona governor signs changes into immigration law
(CNN) – Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed a bill Friday that makes changes to a controversial new state immigration law, saying the changes should ease concerns about racial profiling.
“These changes specifically answer legal questions raised by some who expressed fears that the original law would somehow allow or lead to racial profiling,” Brewer said in a statement after the signing. “These new amendments make it crystal clear and undeniable that racial profiling is illegal and will not be tolerated in Arizona.”
But opponents challenged that assertion in the run-up to Brewer’s signing of the changes into law on Friday.
“It doesn’t deter anything,” said Dan Pochoda, legal director of the Arizona ACLU. “It’s not a serious hurdle.”
Pochoda said that law enforcement officers — under strong pressure to find and remove illegal immigrants — could still identify people by race and then look for a minor infraction as an excuse to investigate them.
He noted that the authors of the immigration law, passed April 23, also backed the changes to it.
The new Arizona law requires immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there is reason to suspect they are in the United States illegally.
Under the law, police would be able to detain an individual based merely on the suspicion that he or she entered the country illegally. But one of the changes — which had been adopted by state lawmakers Thursday night — says police could stop suspected illegal immigrants only while enforcing some other law or ordinance.
An officer could only ask about an immigrant’s legal status, for example, while investigating that person for speeding, loitering or some other offense.
The new law also makes it a state crime to live in or travel through Arizona illegally. And it targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.
University of Arizona law professor Gabriel Chin told CNN that the changes to the bill are significant, insofar as they help remove a “huge disincentive for victims and witnesses to cooperate with the police.”
Under the original version of the law, he said, police officers would have been obligated to arrest a suspected illegal immigrant who approached them after being victimized. That would not be the case under the revised law.
Arizona’s law originally said that the attorney general or a county attorney cannot investigate complaints based “solely” on factors such as a person’s race, color or national origin. The changes enacted Friday remove the word “solely” to emphasize that prosecutors must have some reason other than an individual’s race or national origin to investigate.
But Chin dismissed the significance of that change. Both the federal and state constitutions make it clear that you can “never stop someone exclusively on account of race,” he said.
Racial profiling would still occur, he said. “It’s always ‘race plus’ in these situations. … The law still allows the consideration of race as a factor.”
Defenders of the law — angry over the charges of racism permeating the debate — say it is needed because the federal government has failed to enforce border security with Mexico, allowing hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants to move into in the state.
“Illegal is illegal,” Arizona state Sen. Russell Pearce, the controversial statute’s primary sponsor, told CNN Friday. “Illegal’s not a race, it’s a crime. … And in Arizona, we’re going to enforce” the law.
Pearce accused President Barack Obama, a critic of the measure, of “aiding and abetting criminal activity, inciting criminal activity, inciting violence, and [violating his] oath of office to secure this border, enforce these laws and defend the American people.”
Some analysts said that Arizona was compelled to adopt the amendments in reaction to a growing movement among civil rights activists and others to launch an economic boycott of the state. On Friday, two San Francisco, California, officials wrote a three-page letter to Major League Baseball Commissioner Bud Selig to ask that the 2011 All-Star Game be moved from Phoenix, Arizona, if the law is not repealed.
The overall law has drawn sharp scrutiny from the Justice Department, at least two lawsuits and condemnation from the Mexican government and other Latin American nations. Several prominent entertainers also have spoken out against the measure.
An April 27-28 nationwide Gallup poll, however, found that 51 percent of Americans favor the Arizona law, while only 39 percent oppose it.
The changes to the law are not sufficient and will do little to positively affect daily law enforcement in Arizona, argued Clarissa Martinez De Castro of the National Council of La Raza, a major Latino civil rights organization.
“Even right now, without this law, we know that the practice on the streets is different,” she told CNN. “The [current] practice doesn’t reflect what the law is. And if the governor is saying that racial profiling is not going to be tolerated, why has it been tolerated so far?”
About 500,000 unauthorized immigrants were believed to live in Arizona in 2008, and 11.9 million nationwide, up from 3.5 million nationwide in 1990, according to a Pew Hispanic Center report published in 2009.
Protests against the Arizona law are scheduled Saturday in at least 21 states, the District of Columbia and two Canadian provinces. In all, protests are planned for 47 cities.
The changes to the law will take effect along with the rest of the statute in 90 days.
“It goes back to the federal government,” Martinez told CNN. “If they abdicate their responsibility, they leave state and local governments to grapple with this issue, and the only thing that happens is that we create greater chaos. … This is just not the way forward.”
© 2010 Cable News Network
What Say You?
Does America need Police State measures to catch border jumpers?
Well done Pat.
It appears to me as well that the AZ statehouse acted quickly today, because they were getting torn apart both monetarily & in terms of ridicule over such a backward idea.
It is true that the state faces multiple problems from an influx of persons looking for work who were not legally admitted into the USA. But the only way to make this law ethnicity-neutral would be to require police to question everyone for their papers. Instead, it tells police to form their suspicions and then question.
It is a law which at it’s core hinges on racial profiling – which to my knowledge of civil rights laws is not constitutional – on top of the 4th Amendment protection you mentioned. That is why Obama and Eric Holder are publicly talking about a federal challenge to it.
As Bush Sr. once said, “This Will Not Stand”… ;^)
Here is the litmus test: California, New Mexico and Texas have essentially the same issue to deal with, in all of it’s social ramifications. Moderate GOP’er (one of the few if any, that actually exist) Arnold Schwarzenegger (Governor, CA) rejected the law today. New Mexico has a far more middle-road & moderate political climate, and wouldn’t cook something like this up to begin with.
Even far-right wingnut Rick Perry (Governor, TX), said today he wouldn’t support it for Texas. Like New Mexico, Texas rightly manages to integrate first and expel last.
You know you are on the extreme GOP lunatic fringe, when even secessionist Rick Perry won’t back you… ;^)
At times fanatics take over a state to promote their fanaticism. And I believe this is what has happened to Arizona.
But we still have the United State Constitution. And I believe in this case it must be applied to resolve this problem.
America is still a freedom loving nation. And there is no place for individuals through their delegated power to create a police state, in American territory.
Let us do not forget. That Arizona, is still part of the United States of America. And it is subject to the United States Constitution.
Sammy from Sicily
Right on Sammy. The US can’t avoid being an example for the world on this one whether positive or negative. It all dependes on the Obama admin and if it succeeds in court to get it overruled. I think they will be able to without much trouble.
Here is a link to a CNN exchange between Republican and known Tea Party suckup Tom Tancredo, and singer/activist Linda Ronstadt –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QM4VDXUqnn4
What’s noticeable about how these right wingers argue in favor of it is that they just keep saying it’s time to ‘enforce the law’. Like they can’t even grasp, how it escalates police power beyond what they are allowed to have in the United States by it’s constitution. Yet this same crowd rails against big, powerful government!!
Maybe it’s more truthful if they just admit they don’t want to pay the taxes needed to run America in any kind of fair way, but support every available dime spent on military and police actions.
Yes, Martin. Those that are in power protect their own interests first. And not paying their fare share of the tax burden is their primary interest.
Foreign investments, tax exempt clauses, special trust funds, shifting their capital into non profit organizations, etc. etc. they know all the loopholes….But the average taxpayer at last is left holding the empty bag, and is forced to pay most of the taxes.
Sammy from Sicily
– Papadon says by email comment –
Balderdash to you all. The law in Arizona is very clear. Law enforcement officers are now required to uphold the existing federal law in re illegal immigrants.
If in the course of their regular duty an officer has contact with a person who is not able to produce a normal form of identification the officer is required to turn that person over to ICS. As it stands today ICS will do NOTHING.
This situation is absolutely ridiculous where a federal government whose main job is to protect the security of the nation has looked the other way for 30 years.
The majority of Arizonan’s and Americans support this bill. “‘The firestorm of protest” ??? That is pretty comical. I guess the Lakers either don’t support Los Angeles or they don’t have the backbone to not show up in Phoenix. Which is it LA ? You can’t have it both ways or can you.
I have lurked on this board since seeing a reference to it on another site many months ago. Although this place leans to the far left I have enjoyed reading what has been posted.
And how would those “polls” go if they asked this question:
Is it ok for police to form suspicion about you because of how you look?
That is the essence of this law. It tells police to form “reasonable suspicion”. That goes against the principle of probable cause, which means suspicion anchored to fact, not personal view or subjective opinion. And for that reason it will not hold up to constitutional challenges, that have already started.
If the police can question and detain people on personal opinion you have a police state. At the core this law tries to do exactly that.
Here is a list of boycotts found in 1 minute on Google. On top of this, numerous conventions have also cancelled out of Phoenix;
San Francisco
* San Francisco supervisors, on a 10-1 vote, approved a nonbinding resolution that calls for a boycott of Arizona-based businesses. It asks for, but does not demand, that city departments refrain from entering into new contracts or extending existing ones with companies headquartered in Arizona, unless severing those ties would result in significant costs to the city or violate other laws. (via SF Gate)
Los Angeles
* The Los Angeles City Council voted 13-1 to stop doing business in Arizona unless the state’s tough new immigration law is repealed. The city does about $52 million worth of business with Arizona companies, but it’s likely that only about $8 million worth of contracts can be terminated. (via NPR News)
Milwaukee, WI
* The Milwaukee Common Council Tuesday (5/4) failed to act on a resolution calling for the city to boycott companies based in Arizona. The council sent the measure back to committee. Alderman Robert Puente said his colleagues need to further study the Arizona law. (via WUWM)
Austin, TX
* The resolution, proposed by Council Member Mike Martinez, calls for ending all business-related travel to Arizona by city employees, unless it is related to police investigations, providing humanitarian aid or protecting Austinites’ health and safety. (via Austin American Statesman)
West Hollywood, CA
* The council voted 5-0 Monday night to approve the boycott. The action immediately suspends official travel to Arizona and calls for developing official sanctions. (via CBS2)
Boston, MA
* As the City Council passed a resolution urging that Boston cut business ties with Arizona, Menino said it was important to send “a message’’ that the city disagrees with that state’s response to illegal immigration. (via Boston.com)
Oakland, CA
* The council voted 7-0 Tuesday in favor of the boycott. It calls on city officials to review existing contracts with Arizona-based businesses and not enter into any new ones. It also says staff should not travel to the state on official city business. (via Fresno Bee)
St. Paul, MN
* Mayor Chris Coleman is ordering city departments to no longer travel to conferences in the state of Arizona. (via My Fox 9)
Washington D.C.
* Responding to Arizona’s new immigration law, the resolution requests that the city government and the employee pension fund “divest’ from all Arizona state and municipal bonds and ban city workers from traveling to that state on official business. The resolution, which will be voted on at a later date, does not appear to prevent the city from doing business with Arizona-based companies, as some Hispanic activists had proposed. (via Washington Post)
New York City
* New York’s City Council will consider a resolution calling for a boycott of all things Arizona. Ydanis Rodrigues, a Manhattan Democrat, filed the non-binding resolution Wednesday, a council aide confirmed. (via WSJ)
Boulder, CO
* Employees of the City of Boulder will no longer be traveling to Arizona for business, City Manager Jane Brautigam announced, as a show of the city’s opposition to the recent immigration legislation passed in that state. (via Examiner)
Seattle, WA
* Seattle’s City Council unanimously passed the Boycott Arizona Resolution, directing departments not to send employees to the Grand Canyon State and to refrain from doing new business with firms in Arizona in protest of the tragic new law. (via Examiner)
Brownsville, TX
* During their Tuesday evening meeting, the city commission voted unanimously to pass a resolution against Arizona’s Senate Bill 1070. (via Valley Central)
Hartford, CT
* That until the repeal of SB 1070, the City of Hartford shall not engage in any discretionary travel to Arizona and when applicable and without conflicting with any laws, the City of Hartford shall not engage in any contract for goods or services with any Arizona-based company. the Court of Common Council urges all public and private universities with campuses in Hartford to decline invitations to any sports tournaments in Arizona (via L. E. Cotto and City of Hartford Resolution)
Coachella, CA
* The Coachella City Council formally opposed Arizona’s new immigration law Wednesday night. (via Desert Sun)
El Paso, TX
* The city’s resolution only condemned Arizona, but counselors added a boycott at last minute and approved the measure. (via News Channel 9)
No matter how bad you want it to SB 1070 does NOT make it ok for police or anyone else to form a reasonable suspicion based on an individuals color.
You people really crack me up with some of the comments you come up with. FYI, I live in Phoenix and the majority of hispanics support this bill. Nobody here is against immigration but we are all against illegal immigration.
When push comes to shove do you think any of those cities you listed will cut themselves out of millions of dollars in revenue ?? As I stated before if Los Angeles is so united then why at this very moment are the Lakers in Phoenix playing an NBA play-off game ??
Since you like to google maybe you can list the 17 states that are now drafting bills similar to AZ SB 1070. Maybe you can forward the info to those cities so they can add the 17 states to their phony and toothless protests.
Sure, it says that the suspicion cannot be based on race. The Arizona Republicans that wrote this turkey of a law included that, because even they understand that is not constitutional.
The problem is, with no other evidence of an illegal immigrant to go on, it still tells police to try to form or not form a “reasonable suspicion” with everyone they encounter in the course of their normal duties. What else are they going to go by but Hispanic appearance?
It leaves them no other way to do their job, which is why it’s getting shot down.
If there is some factual evidence of illegality, that is what the American constitution enables police to act on. Not their subjective suspicion anchored to no facts except race, that suggests to them somebody could be illegal from Mexico.
Other states have some right wingers trying to put it through, sure. None have succeeded though.
If so many other states agree, why do Schwarzenegger and Perry not agree? They have both said they don’t want it, and they have the same border crosser problem that Arizona does. And like Roy G said, New Mexico isn’t going there either.
It gives police power that the American constitution restricts them from having. They don’t have that kind of power in Canada either.
You don’t have to believe it now, American courts will overrule it soon enough, if Brewer doesn’t have to take it back herself sooner because too many businesses are losing money from the boycott.
By the way, boycotts don’t hurt the boycotter. The boycotter buys somewhere else.
Please, Don’t Be so quickly to judge on this matter untill you see the whole story and facts. This is not just about Mexico, but National Security. This is part of what has been hidden from the American Public, and just lately is becoming known. Atlanta WSBTV News by AP.
There are 2 videos about this so be sure to watch them both.
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438021/index.html
http://www.wsbtv.com/video/23438712/index.html
PLEASE send to people before the video expires
Senator shaken takes list to Senate in call for Action.
Think about the fact that some terrorist can just walk across the Border with a suitcase Bomb maybe Nuke and have free access to anywhere in the United States before setting it off. Reality folks,Facts, Please see video’s.
National Guard Troops start arriving along all Mexican Border States. They come welcomed by Citizens and Border Patrols. They are ariving in Tanks, Personel Carriers FLIR equipped and fully Armed. With Air Bases nearby the Border Region, it would be easy for them to call in Air Support. Even more are on the way and being requested by Senators such as Arizona’s John McCain. Republicans are calling for Congressional Action and vote to send more troops, Obama under pressure giving in, . Story on this reported by AP and passed on to other news channels.
http://www.news25.us/Global/story.asp?S=12540469
Califorina can’t boycott this.
Hello Roy G.
I haven’t been on this site for quite a while, but with the latest breaking news. I just had to jump in with a few other views for you folks. From the reactions and post here, people really are kept in the dark on this issue. Earth shaking changes are coming to the U.S. Border, in the Name of National Security even the States whom oppose Arizona’s new Law. Check it out, Roy, the cat is out of the bag.
No amount of Fox News type fearmongering from some local channel, justifies cancelling the U.S. constitution.
I seriously doubt the accuracy of media that claim it’s “hundreds of OTM (other than Mexican) from terrorist nations”. They didn’t tell you the time frame they are looking at, if it’s even hundreds over any time period. More likely those are cooked statistics, to whip up ridiculous fear.
Out of those “hundreds from terrorist nations”, why have there then been no terror cells busted from them? The vast majority of these crossers, if not all, are impoverished people looking for work.
FYI, that desert area is desolate, hot and dangerous for many miles on end. Terrorists aren’t carrying nukes over it. You only risk those elements and the lunatics with guns waiting for you on the U.S. side, if you and your family are starving. “Terrorists” can get in much more easily from Canada.
Danger Will Robinson! Danger!! Death Panels!!! Muslims!! WMD!!
I agree with Pat. Those who want to be scared by wingnuts can do so, it doesn’t matter. That Arizona questioning law isn’t going to hold up in U.S. court.
Fear is a very powerful weapon in the hands of the enemy. It can destroy the morale of a peace loving nation. In this case
fear is bean promoted by some far right political groups that want to attack our way of living. These
extremist groups want to destroy our freedom, our constitutional rights, and their primary goal is to
create a police state. Where our constitution and its laws will be suspended, either momentarily or
permanent. All this is being promoted under national security. Which will be the legitimate excuse
to suppress our civil rights and to give rise to a police state. And in this case our enemies are not from outside of our country. But they are inside our own country using their political power to enact repressive laws that will destroy our freedom through the use of manipulated fear..
This Arizona Law SB1070. Surely is a racist law that should be abolished immediately. Because it has
no value in a freedom loving nation. And such law is unconstitutional from my point of view.
I also believe that this Arizona Law SB1070 is a legalized witch hunt that will destroy our basic democratic principles
that all people are innocent until proven guilty in a court of justice beyond a reasonable doubt. It is ridiculous
and unconstitutional for the police to go around and on mere suspicion asking people for proof of their citizenship.
These are gestapo tactics, that were used by the Nazis, and I believe that the United States should not lower
itself to adopt, or permit these tactics that curtail the freedom of its people…Yes this is fear in action. Promoted
by leaders that do not know, or pretend not to know that the United States is a free country..In which many people
of the world respect it, and will go to all extremes to be part of this freedom loving nation. Which is based on Freedom,
Liberty, and Justice for all…So let’s keep it that way, and throw these fear promoting warmongers out of their elected office.
and should be given a course on the principles of our United States constitution.
Sammy from Sicily
Wow, now we are in here calling this law racist and unconstitutional and using references to the gestapo and Nazi’s.
Very good, you all have just proved my point. I am requesting anyone on this here board to specifically state where in this AZ SB 1070 that it is promoting any of the blatant lies that you are FALSELY SPEWING.
Its fine to disagree with the bill but posting blatant lies only hurts your cause.
In a free society You just cannot go around asking people to prove their citizenship. On mere suspicion.. if not being blond, blue eyed and over six foot tall. And this my friend is not falsely spewing.. This is merely racism in action.
And I believe that America can do without these repressive laws.
For years these illegal immigrants have been profit to those farmers who have used them as cheap labor, and keeping such immigrants in poor working conditions..Whom these illegal immigrants have benefited the American economy, by keeping farm products at a very low cost for the American people.
Yes I still confirm that this Arizona Law is a fascist, racist law. And it has no place in a free society. No matter how you turn it it is a fascist, racist law..
Sammy from Sicily.
replying to USA / Meatstick
Maybe you skipped over above where I referenced the “reasonable suspicion” clause in the law.
That is the whole problem and why it would make Arizona a police state. Like the Nazi Germany, or any other dictatorship is.
These people who you think did a good thing writing this law, didn’t even find out if police would support it. They don’t!
Here are still more specifics:
___________
Arizona police chiefs opposed to immigration law meet with Attorney General
By Ron Brynaert
Wednesday, May 26th, 2010 — 10:00 am
A group of police chiefs who have launched a campaign against the new Arizona immigration law which they believe will damage community relations with law enforcement agencies across the nation are set to meet with Attorney General Eric Holder on Wednesday morning.
A press release sent to RAW STORY states, “Arizona police chiefs are concerned that the new SB 1070 law in Arizona will drive a wedge between the community and the police, and will damage the trust that police agencies have worked to establish over many years with members of all their communities. More than a dozen other states are considering laws similar to Arizona’s. Police chiefs from some of America’s largest cities are joining with their Arizona colleagues to express these concerns and to seek the Attorney General’s advice and discuss the ramifications of state and federal immigration laws.”
The Washington Post’s Spencer S. Hsu reports, “Arizona’s new crackdown on illegal immigration will increase crime in U.S. cities, not reduce it, by driving a wedge between police and immigrant communities, police chiefs from several of the state’s and the nation’s largest cities said Tuesday.”
“Arizona police chiefs are concerned that the new … law in Arizona will drive a wedge between the community and the police, and will damage the trust that police agencies have worked to establish over many years with members of all their communities,” a statement from the police chiefs said, according to reports.
USA Today reports,
Full press release follows:
Chiefs claim Holder said federal challenge
imminent
The LA Times reports, “During the hourlong meeting, Holder told the officials that a federal challenge to Arizona’s law may be imminent, according to participants.”
He did say that the Justice Department is seriously considering action and that it could be done soon,” said Chuck Wexler, the director of the Police Executive Research Forum.
Holder has previously expressed dismay over Arizona’s new legislation, calling it “an unfortunate one…. It is, I fear, subject to potential abuse,” Holder said.
Justice officials have said that they may challenge the law on two grounds – for subjecting people to racial profiling and for usurping the federal government’s power to enforce immigration law.
An Associated Press article posted Wednesday afternoon adds,
The new law “puts Arizona law enforcement right in the middle” at a time when police budgets are already in crisis, said John Harris, president of the Arizona Association of Chiefs of Police.
The Obama administration is weighing a possible court challenge to the Arizona law and “the attorney general said he would be making decisions fairly quickly,” though he did not elaborate, said Harris, who is police chief in Sahuarita, Ariz.
At the Arizona Daily Star, John Bolton notes, “Several national news organizations are reporting that a Justice Department legal team is drafting a plan to challenge Arizona’s new immigration law, SB 1070.”
All of the reports stress that a final decision to challenge the law has not been made and would face hurdles from other legal analysts within the Justice Department and in the White House. But the team is reported to be developing a challenge based on the idea that Arizona overstepped its authority.
The story has also been reported by the Wall Street Journal and ABC News.
It was a bold move by Arizona, but I think you will begin to see more states adopt this attitude toward illegal immigration. Most legal citizens realize that someone has to start an initiative to stop this influx of illegals from Mexico and the US government has failed miserably at enforcing the laws that are already in place.
Amendments to the Constitution have to be made sometimes to encompass new changes in the way our government is run. Maybe the day will come when every American citizen will be required to carry their passport on their person at all times. I am required to carry mine when I am a visitor in another country. It seems like a small price to pay to keep from being detained for hours by the police and if it helps to protect our border security, I wouldn’t have a problem with it.
There will always be protests from the people affected by these new changes, especially the friends and families of these illegal aliens who are in violation of the law. If they don’t like the changes, maybe El Presidente Fox will welcome them with open arms to the beautiful land of Mexico!
Remark 19; This again sounds most unfortunately like a prelude and justifier to a US fascist state, where police question you for personal documentations based upon their own subjective suspicions, and detain you if you cannot produce it. Did you never study the Gestapo?
If the other commenters here are right no states will have it, as it’s soon to be struck down. There is obviously no airtight defence of a border that long, even after the barrier wall now under construction is completed. Seeing as that region of the US was once Mexico, and some 40% of US citizens in those states are in fact Hispanic, perhaps the better course is to come off the fear-ridden crackdowns and find ways to mitigate; such as the guest worker policy which indeed Bush Jr. was in favour to implement.
I wonder how you people from the UK would feel if all the famine starved Africans started pouring across your borders, willing to work for pennies, destroying your economy, demanding bi-lingual teachers to teach their kids in school, not to mention the criminal element raping, robbing & murdering right under the nose of the Queen? Cherry Ho!
I did not realized that there are so many sick minds. That still believe in the use of fascist, and gestapo tactics to resolve this illegal immigration problem that has risen in border states.
I do wish that these people with their backward thinking would really read the atrocities that were practiced under fascism and Nazism. where millions were killed, tortured, abused, and simply left to die.
Our freedom must be cherished, as well as that of others. In order to understand others, one must put himself in their shoes. And this is what makes America great, it is not money, and fame..But to respect the rights of others, as we would have others to respect ours..Do not harass, or mistreat those that want to share our freedom..Because in time they will spread our freedom to others…And this is the best foreign policy that we can practice.
Sammy, From Sicily.
I don’t know who you guys are talking to, but the police people and sheriffs who are my friends and neighbors here in Southern Arizona support the new law. And many of them have family in Mexico and have dark skin. They can’t simply hassle people because of their skin color – they have to be in the process of dealing with a possible crime. We have seat belt laws here too, but in that case they can’t stop people because they think they aren’t wearing seatbelts while driving.
You talk about fascist, Gestapo tactics, but in all my travels to Europe, Mexico, Asia and Africa, the last place I’m afraid to be is the United States. Most places I have visited are police states, and many of you are in no position to judge us here in Arizona. If you don’t like it, boycott us all you want. We don’t really care. It is our friends and family (of every color) who are being shot and murdered along the lawless border! Regardless whether you have sympathy for us or scorn, it has no impact on our lives. What will have a positive effect our lives is this new law. We are going to stop liberal municipalities from making it illegal to enforce the laws of our land. I can’t get more than a mile into Mexico without being asked for my papers, so how dare they judge us (or the rest of the world for that matter)!?
Sorry I don’t follow, how laws of other nations enter in at all.
Nor would the seatbelt finding be dependent upon a subjective speculation of individual officers (the ‘reasonable’ suspicion clause which is the row). One either had the belt on, or one did not.
With no basis of fact to go on regarding a possible immigration violation, the only thing left is speculation, upon the only grounds available to the officer. The grounds of race. Therein lies the row, as has been pointed out numerous times on the thread. The American constitution prohibits such police power.
Heading off any “butt out” arguments, one need only refer to the title of this particular Balker topic. Indeed it holds as well, for those who believe the American model of individual rights codified as law, was adopted elsewhere. (it was, many places across the globe)
Recapping from the reported story from Pat;
You people in other countries need to find some other stuff to stick your nose into because this does NOT affect your everyday lives like it does the people who live in the Mexico border states like Texas, Arizona, New Mexico, and California.
Stop with the Nazi & Facist crap! I never had to carry papers to prove that my car was insured but when they made it a LAW, I started carrying insurance papers. If they make it a LAW that I have to carry my birth certificate to prove my citizenship, then I’ll carry it. Then the only people who have the right to whine about being stopped are the ILLEGAL ALIENS who don’t have a US birth certificate. Color WON’T MATTER. PROBLEM SOLVED!!!!!
Sorry John, I addressed that in the just prior remark. Nor have you managed any defence of the law on constitutional grounds, whilst others have explained repeatedly how it is not constitutional.
Perhaps you’d now like to address the fact, that the very police you wish to have act on supposition and no facts beyond skin color, are opposed to being your Gestapo. Have you missed that part of the thread as well?
To: USA Johnny
I guess they have done a good job in brainwashing you.
Just for your personal information, there are a lot of people in other countries that are more educated than what you think that you are. And they can smell the rise of a fascist gestapo state from way across the ocean that separates us. Because a lot of us from other countries have fought to guarantee the freedom that you are enjoying at the present. And I assure you that some of us will fight to the death to make sure that this freedom that you are enjoying will not go up into smoke.
So stop trying to use the patriotic bully tactic to cover human abuses that eventually will curtail our basic freedom. To roam freely..Remember that in our system of government. Each person is INNOCENT until proven guilty in a court of law…And did you ever hear of Habeas Corpus…Well in some cases even this is not being practiced.. And it is being abused, or obscured..
Sammy from Sicily
Martin,
you are sitting at your computer in the UK, reading articles in “USA Today” which quote the opinions of politicians (police chiefs). That in no way compares to me living and working on the Arizona border, and personally talking to the “boots on the ground” officers. We in Arizona see the crime and chaos first hand. The officers ARE NOT stopping brown colored people. They are stopping automobile thieves, robbers, home invaders, drunks, and other people who are committing crimes in plain sight of the public (and no, it’s not the majority of immigrants, but turning a blind eye encourages lawlessness from the criminal element)! The issue is that some liberal/leftist cities have made it illegal for officers, after apprehending the criminals, to then inquire about the citizenship of the criminals! Often the officers can only issue citations and release the criminals for court appearance (and then they don’t show up – whether sneaking back across the border or being lost in the crowd because it was never determined exactly who the criminal was…). Sometimes they do serve time in jail and are released after their sentence is completed, even though they are violating federal immigration laws. They need to be prosecuted for that crime. So if a U.S. Federal officers and officers in other states are allowed (and do) investigate the legal status of criminals, why can’t we? Arizona is inconsistent and the State is providing leadership in order to streamline the rules (to the delight of the men and women who are responsible for fighting crime). So you are wrong to suggest they will be depending upon “subjective speculation”, or will resort to using race to stop law abiding citizens. If a criminal has a Canadian or British accent, you can be sure they will have their backgrounds checked. And if I am apprehended, they are going to investigate my background and make sure they know who I am.
Regarding why other nation’s laws are worth considering, well, the President of Mexico stood before a joint session of our Congress and criticized the Arizona law. He never acknowledging that Mexican laws are stricter than SB1070 and he never acknowledged that the U.S. Federal laws are also stricter. It’s worth noting that those Federal laws have been upheld as constitutional. So your argument regarding the constitutionality of the Arizona law is void, regardless of how many people file lawsuits. It will be upheld in the court of appeals, mark my words. It is clearly constitutional!
I can’t go to Mexico without having my papers checked at every police checkpoint, but they want to prevent us from simply investigating the background of criminals. Police are not going to be hassling law abiding brown-skinned people. It just doesn’t happen now and it will not later! The seatbelt example was used to demonstrate that when that law was enacted, people howled in protest, saying that innocent drivers would be stopped just to check seatbelts….but it never happened. Even when they see people without a seatbelt, they can’t stop them for that violation. And if they try, what charged can they bring against you if you aren’t violating any other law than the seatbelt law. It doesn’t happen. Likewise they will not simply stop people because of race. If that were the case, they would have to stop thousands of people a day – over half my church is Hispanic. They wouldn’t be able to cross the street for stopping to check IDs.
It’s funny that Holder is filing a lawsuit, but he never read the bill before saying he was personally against the Arizona law! Even our former governor, Napolitano declared her opposition, but was embarrassed to say that she didn’t read the bill either! It is all politics & symbolism…
Sammy, you shouldn’t use the example of fighting for freedom. Many Americans died fighting Italians while trying to crush the Fascist Italian regime. During the last century, when have Italians willingly spilled the blood of thousands of their sons to liberate oppressed nations? It is you who is using patriotic bully tactics – if anything is going up as smoke, it’s your argument. If there is proof of human rights violations in Arizona, there is no lack of laws or lawyers here in the USA, who can rectify the crimes. But don’t be surprised when the law is upheld in court, just like Arizona’s last “unconstitutional” immigration law (which is still the law of the land today!). Regarding education, my future Brother-In-Law is a prosecuting attorney, and expert in the law. And he supports the new law in Arizona. Have fun providing analysis from Europe, I’m flying to Cancún tomorrow (and will have my papers checked many times).
Arizona to World: “Boycott us all you want, you’ll turn a blind eye and still buy our copper”.
The confusing of issues is always amazing to me. One more time; this law is unconstitutional because it allows police to act on “reasonable suspicion”, which is a violation of the American 4th Amendment limiting the search and seizure of persons, papers and effects.
The 4th Amendment requires probable cause, which means some fact basis, for police to take an action. And that gets verified before or after by a judge who is supposed to be independent of police. If there never was a factual reason for the detention, it is thrown out. That is a basic tenant of law and protects us from the police having absolute power. They can’t just guess you’re guilty of a crime, and then hold you until you prove you’re not.
Martin nailed it when he said the laws of other nations aren’t pertinent to the topic here. It isn’t either about liberals intervening in post-arrest situations. It’s a narrow problem in this law, and it lets police act on supposition, question and detain without any factual basis and force you to show evidence you’re innocent to get let go. A gestapo power in other words. It’s no broader than that.
I doubt very much that the vast majority of these border crossers are criminals. They cross it and take the huge risks of arrest and getting shot; one tragic one just happened in El Paso; because they need work that badly.
But let’s say painting it as chaos and a bunch of criminals, is true. You still are in the United States, and unable to cancel the constitution. You have to enforce immigration laws within that, not by anything that falls outside it.
Funny how reading the police chiefs reactions I posted, they disagree about crime going down. They say it breaks trust in Hispanic communities, and people won’t come forward with information they need to stop criminals, and crime will go up. That’s the same police which the law’s supporters think are going to enforce this turkey! LOL