The 4th Amendment requires probable cause, which means some fact basis, for police to take an action. And that gets verified before or after by a judge who is supposed to be independent of police. If there never was a factual reason for the detention, it is thrown out. That is a basic tenant of law and protects us from the police having absolute power. They can’t just guess you’re guilty of a crime, and then hold you until you prove you’re not.

Martin nailed it when he said the laws of other nations aren’t pertinent to the topic here. It isn’t either about liberals intervening in post-arrest situations. It’s a narrow problem in this law, and it lets police act on supposition, question and detain without any factual basis and force you to show evidence you’re innocent to get let go. A gestapo power in other words. It’s no broader than that.

I doubt very much that the vast majority of these border crossers are criminals. They cross it and take the huge risks of arrest and getting shot; one tragic one just happened in El Paso; because they need work that badly.

But let’s say painting it as chaos and a bunch of criminals, is true. You still are in the United States, and unable to cancel the constitution. You have to enforce immigration laws within that, not by anything that falls outside it.

Funny how reading the police chiefs reactions I posted, they disagree about crime going down. They say it breaks trust in Hispanic communities, and people won’t come forward with information they need to stop criminals, and crime will go up. That’s the same police which the law’s supporters think are going to enforce this turkey! LOL

Regarding why other nation’s laws are worth considering, well, the President of Mexico stood before a joint session of our Congress and criticized the Arizona law. He never acknowledging that Mexican laws are stricter than SB1070 and he never acknowledged that the U.S. Federal laws are also stricter. It’s worth noting that those Federal laws have been upheld as constitutional. So your argument regarding the constitutionality of the Arizona law is void, regardless of how many people file lawsuits. It will be upheld in the court of appeals, mark my words. It is clearly constitutional!

I can’t go to Mexico without having my papers checked at every police checkpoint, but they want to prevent us from simply investigating the background of criminals. Police are not going to be hassling law abiding brown-skinned people. It just doesn’t happen now and it will not later! The seatbelt example was used to demonstrate that when that law was enacted, people howled in protest, saying that innocent drivers would be stopped just to check seatbelts….but it never happened. Even when they see people without a seatbelt, they can’t stop them for that violation. And if they try, what charged can they bring against you if you aren’t violating any other law than the seatbelt law. It doesn’t happen. Likewise they will not simply stop people because of race. If that were the case, they would have to stop thousands of people a day – over half my church is Hispanic. They wouldn’t be able to cross the street for stopping to check IDs.

It’s funny that Holder is filing a lawsuit, but he never read the bill before saying he was personally against the Arizona law! Even our former governor, Napolitano declared her opposition, but was embarrassed to say that she didn’t read the bill either! It is all politics & symbolism…

Sammy, you shouldn’t use the example of fighting for freedom. Many Americans died fighting Italians while trying to crush the Fascist Italian regime. During the last century, when have Italians willingly spilled the blood of thousands of their sons to liberate oppressed nations? It is you who is using patriotic bully tactics – if anything is going up as smoke, it’s your argument. If there is proof of human rights violations in Arizona, there is no lack of laws or lawyers here in the USA, who can rectify the crimes. But don’t be surprised when the law is upheld in court, just like Arizona’s last “unconstitutional” immigration law (which is still the law of the land today!). Regarding education, my future Brother-In-Law is a prosecuting attorney, and expert in the law. And he supports the new law in Arizona. Have fun providing analysis from Europe, I’m flying to Cancún tomorrow (and will have my papers checked many times).

Arizona to World: “Boycott us all you want, you’ll turn a blind eye and still buy our copper”.

I guess they have done a good job in brainwashing you.

Just for your personal information, there are a lot of people in other countries that are more educated than what you think that you are. And they can smell the rise of a fascist gestapo state from way across the ocean that separates us. Because a lot of us from other countries have fought to guarantee the freedom that you are enjoying at the present. And I assure you that some of us will fight to the death to make sure that this freedom that you are enjoying will not go up into smoke.
So stop trying to use the patriotic bully tactic to cover human abuses that eventually will curtail our basic freedom. To roam freely..Remember that in our system of government. Each person is INNOCENT until proven guilty in a court of law…And did you ever hear of Habeas Corpus…Well in some cases even this is not being practiced.. And it is being abused, or obscured..

Sammy from Sicily

Perhaps you’d now like to address the fact, that the very police you wish to have act on supposition and no facts beyond skin color, are opposed to being your Gestapo. Have you missed that part of the thread as well?

Nor would the seatbelt finding be dependent upon a subjective speculation of individual officers (the ‘reasonable’ suspicion clause which is the row). One either had the belt on, or one did not.

With no basis of fact to go on regarding a possible immigration violation, the only thing left is speculation, upon the only grounds available to the officer. The grounds of race. Therein lies the row, as has been pointed out numerous times on the thread. The American constitution prohibits such police power.

Heading off any “butt out” arguments, one need only refer to the title of this particular Balker topic. Indeed it holds as well, for those who believe the American model of individual rights codified as law, was adopted elsewhere. (it was, many places across the globe)

Recapping from the reported story from Pat;

USA Today reports,

“This law is the culmination of a very broken immigration system,” Phoenix Police Chief Jack Harris said. “It doesn’t fix the immigration problem, it only diverts our scarce resources.”

“All of us … are opposed to this,” Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck said, adding that the law will likely discourage witnesses and victims of crimes from cooperating with police. “This bill breaks the trust with our communities.”

Five federal lawsuits challenging the law have been filed since Republican Gov. Jan Brewer signed the measure last month. Holder is weighing a similar lawsuit on behalf of the federal government.

You talk about fascist, Gestapo tactics, but in all my travels to Europe, Mexico, Asia and Africa, the last place I’m afraid to be is the United States. Most places I have visited are police states, and many of you are in no position to judge us here in Arizona. If you don’t like it, boycott us all you want. We don’t really care. It is our friends and family (of every color) who are being shot and murdered along the lawless border! Regardless whether you have sympathy for us or scorn, it has no impact on our lives. What will have a positive effect our lives is this new law. We are going to stop liberal municipalities from making it illegal to enforce the laws of our land. I can’t get more than a mile into Mexico without being asked for my papers, so how dare they judge us (or the rest of the world for that matter)!?

I do wish that these people with their backward thinking would really read the atrocities that were practiced under fascism and Nazism. where millions were killed, tortured, abused, and simply left to die.

Our freedom must be cherished, as well as that of others. In order to understand others, one must put himself in their shoes. And this is what makes America great, it is not money, and fame..But to respect the rights of others, as we would have others to respect ours..Do not harass, or mistreat those that want to share our freedom..Because in time they will spread our freedom to others…And this is the best foreign policy that we can practice.

Sammy, From Sicily.

If the other commenters here are right no states will have it, as it’s soon to be struck down. There is obviously no airtight defence of a border that long, even after the barrier wall now under construction is completed. Seeing as that region of the US was once Mexico, and some 40% of US citizens in those states are in fact Hispanic, perhaps the better course is to come off the fear-ridden crackdowns and find ways to mitigate; such as the guest worker policy which indeed Bush Jr. was in favour to implement.