Sun 26 Apr 2009
How Does The World See America After Bush?
Posted by wyomoingjohnnie under Balkers
[38] Comments
I am still amazed that Americans never stood up to stop Bushco. Something is very different from the 60’s-70’s. I know, after all of this, I am ashamed of what my country has done.
I am wondering what the rest of the world sees? I am also curious about how the world sees the changes taking place under Obama.
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Welcome John! John also runs the Yahoo Group Save-The-USA. Nice to
have you aboard.
I got at this issue in the very first Balkback posted to Balkingpoints.
I likewise feel it is important, to let the world know that all of America did not support the previous administration.
For my tax dollar, Barack and Hillary have done an excellent job in a short time, diffusing tensions with adversaries like Iran, Cuba and Venezuela. You can just feel the difference in approach, and I think that is coming across worldwide already.
Not that there isn’t much more for them to do, but a good start I think. :>)
Bush was not well-liked by this country but Obama is gaining in that direction with his reckless spending and embarrassing actions such as bowing to a forieg dictator and his unwarranted apologies that he passes out like free candy. He has set this country back by a hundred years financially. It worries me that my children and grandchildren will be saddled with debt due to his spending. He has released state secrets without concern for the results. His inexperience is showing.
Obama hasn’t diffused anything. The Muslims still hate us.
Obama is as bad as Bush and Clinton. He is a globalist. He will not isolate America, even though that would be the right thing to do.
Woodyd USA and David Laflech: I see what Obama is doing very differently.
Obama has spoken out against using torture and assured the US and the the world that this will not happen under his watch. This isn’t weakness — it’s returning to sanity and what we’ve always stood for: respect for human rights, freedom and living according to our Constitution and laws. We lost our way during the Bush years.
If your and my grandchildren are saddled with debt, it is due to the deregulation policies implemented (and total lack of oversight) that enabled the banking and mortgage industries and Wall Street to create the financial crisis during the Bush administration.
It’s also due to unprecedented spending on an illegal, immoral war we had no business engaging in, in Iraq. Bush squandered a $350 billion federal surplus he inherited from Clinton, and then on top of that, ran up of a deficit $5 trillion in eight years.
It’s financial crisis was also brought about by giving the wealthy additional tax cuts while we were at war in two countries.
The wealthiest doubled their income during the Bush years and were still given tax cuts! Meanwhile the strength of the middle class eroded, with record job losses and middle class income stagnating or significantly decreased, due to inflation, outsourcing jobs and other problems completely ignored by Bush.
Continuing the isolationist policies of the Bush years would only increase our alienation and lack of support in the world.
Bush was not an isolationist. Nobody is.
I don’t see what’s wrong with treating another world leader with respect. Christians have a saying, Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We may not always agree with how other world leaders treat their citizens, but I do know this. These leaders are not going away, there is no magic potion. Dialogue, expressing our concerns respectfully, if possible, is far preferable to the tone taken by Bush. How did that work out. If someone is the Head of their country, whether we agree with them or not, they should be treated with respect. You really do catch more flies with honey, than lemon.
Welcome Woody, David & Rick!
This Balk thread is an excellent example for the world, of how differently Americans can view their leadership.
And B/P’s scope as it grows will always be world issues & perspectives.
Still it’s inevitable we’ll be on U.S. politics from time to time – it does affect a lot of things globally.
And Americans come to a boil quickly, over their various views on it… ;^)
Which could make this a good juncture to add the link above for Balkingpoints Terms of Service (TOS), which was previously stated
only on the About page.
This YouTube link, illustrates well the debate on whether the U.S. should be diplomatic or hostile towards nations like Iran and Venezuela.
It is Hillary on the Hill last week, questioned by U.S. House Representative Mike Pence, (R) Indiana
(length 4:41, and deeper than it’s title suggests);
Hillary on Obama diplomacy
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1. It is different from the 70’s when Nixon was run out on a rail.
2. We just had the Watergate scandal then and not the 9/11 attack. I think it made a lot of people sheep to be led, which Bush Co used to spy without warrants and spread fear about Iraq WMD, and ignore the Geneva Conventions also.
What would you do for freedom?
Right or wrong Iraq is now a free nation. I do not think that is an embarrassment.
Welcome aboard d/usa!
I’d say it’s the right-or-wrong part, not the free nation part that turned the world against the Bush Regime. With the civil war now flaring up again in Iraq, it’s end state remains to be seen IMO. Iran is trying to annex it, and it has a Shi’a majority in it’s corner.
But whatever the current situation or how we got there, the warrior-first posture got rejected in the last 2 U.S. elections / ‘06 and ‘08. So now we’re trying to work the diplomatic angles for better outcomes & more support amongst traditional allies. Mouthpiece R’s are positive it will fail, but they thought Trickle-Down was gospel also…
The end does not justify the means, although the Bush Administration didn’t see it that way. With complete disregard for the Constitution and Bill of Rights, they created the Patriot Act which has absolutely nothing to do with being a Patriot.
All indications are that Obama is well received by the rest of the world. IMO he is like a breath of fresh air. The rest of the world needs to know that Americans are not like Bush. After 9/11 Bush/Cheney used the fear of the American people create the Patriot Act, which was anything but patriotic. It will take some time, however, to regain the high road but I believe that Obama is giving it his all.
Welcome Tim and IBDaChief! Nice to have you aboard.
America’s problem is Obama has taken Bush policies to a dangerous new level. He has expanded the Patriot Act to authorize wiretaps on all US citizens within the US. He has tripled Bush’s spending. His stimulus bill was mostly payback so another one will likely be required. He has kept the military complex going. There are bills to control our water (S787) and bills to control the internet (S773). There’s even a bill to make National service Mandatory (HR1444) after it was removed from HR 1388 due to public outcry. His goal appears to make the masses dependent on our government as our rights and money are being stripped away.
We the People must stand up for our constitution! The Decleration of Independence is our guide,the Bill of Rights protects our civil liberties! Constant vigilance is the price for freedom! People all over the world look to the US as a role model yet we have been sabotaged by the greedy capitalists and bankers and no protections have been afforeded to the people ,the rich have all the time in the world to figure out how to get richer and the coporate lobbyists help run congress etc…Now waste and war and killing and disease are profitable so we as a nation have become the biggest problem ourselves, , , so Bush is gone but everything he represented ,arrogance,greed ,machoism ,ignorance, apathy, cynicism, hatred, guilt, is still the way we live in America. We burn trash to make energy,we kill the environment, and we have exported this lifestyle all over the world, , ,Its not the middle class or lower income people to blame, its the rich controlling class and our government who have rigged the system . And they call us tree huggers and hippies, the ones who stand up to the injustices, they call us eco terrorists, they divide and conquer ,,the problem is nobody is going to win , violence breeds more violence, this is our main export,weapons of mass destruction,,,,,there is another way ,Peace Energy. If we can come together as a people to save energy and to hold our leaders responsible we might have a chance to be a beacon of light once again to the people of the world.
Welcome aboard Jennifer, and back Sam!
Btw, the Patriot Act & Bush’s wiretaps of Americans in violation of FISA, are different items. The Patriot Act never covered the wiretapping, although it does impinge upon the 4th Amendment IMO. There was one revision made to it in 2006, diluting it slightly. I believe more should and will be done under Obama to make it consititutional. Although I believe Congressional Dems now controlling the legislative docket, will introduce those and Obama will follow not lead on it.
In 2007, Congress made Bush run his wiretap program within the FISA law, meaning warrants are required from a judge. Obama has indeed made no indication of scrapping it. But they are supposed to have probable cause now to tap, given by the FISA court.
Which means indiscriminate tapping on mass numbers of subjects is illegal. I believe that is what the Bush administration was up to, and why they would not submit the taps to FISA review, and why he lied during the 2004 campaign about all of his surveillance being within the Constitution.
I would agree Sam that the very wealthy have propped up a status quo, based on greed and preserving a class system. I think it has now imploded however, and they will face some new regulations going forward as we repair the crisis. We should be getting health care coverage and new programs to employ the disenfranchised, in legislation this year.
I totally agree about energy transformation being gigantic for the future / U.S. and world. You’re big on that Peace Energy phrase. Is it just about conservation, or that and more?
The original question, in part was:
“I am wondering what the rest of the world sees? I am also curious about how the world sees the changes taking place under Obama.”
One of the respondants above makes the comment that “The Muslims still hate us”
It’s a bit more all-encompasing that that I’m afraid – not just the Muslims hate the US. And until the ordinary citizens of the USA come to grips with why a significant portion of the rest of the world hates the US nothing will change.
Before I retired I worked for a multi-national with offices in the USA. When visiting and getting embroiled in discussions just such as this, I was always astonished by a seemingly all-pervasive arrogant conviction, held by my American colleagues, that the rest of the world really did want to be American. They were all deeply convinced that there were two types of people – those that lived in the USA and those that wanted to! – and nothing I could say could break their conviction abou this. (Nothing is further from the truth by the way!)
There seems also to have developed in the past twenty years or so, an attitude that whatever happens “we must support the President – whatever he does” May I remind you of something that a former US president said, “To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.”
(Theodore Roosevelt).
Finally – and I realize I’m ranging about here – I must comment on the statement that “Right or wrong Iraq is now a free nation.” Are you sure?? Far more people have died under the supposed “liberation” of Iraq, that were ever executed by Saddam. And – right or wrong – the former Iraq was a strong secular buffer between the west and the extremists in Iraq. The way Iraq is going now I suspect it will not be long before it becomes an extremist Muslim state and the terrorists that were supposed to be defeated have been given more oxygen and recruits than they could have ever hoped for. The US continues to make a “rod for its own back.”
Just a small correction. In my post I said “And – right or wrong – the former Iraq was a strong secular buffer between the west and the extremists in Iraq.” I meant to say ” . . the extremists in Iran.” Sorry.
Welcome sherljim! Excellent remarks.
Americans are self-centric and self-righteous I’d say, as an effect of heavy pro-U.S. slant in our major media. It’s rather astounding what we don’t know, about the rest of the world.
But that apparatus has also been turned on it’s head, in a decade and a half of the WWW . So there’s some hope for us… ;^)
I’d like to believe, that the world as a general populace doesn’t flat out hate us. I hope many still see the wide-open, fast-lane society that melts ethnicities and codifies liberties and exports innovation – along with despising the militaristic interference of our presidents.
I hope it’s both, and I hope we’re now on a path of fundamental correction with the failure and overthrow of the Reagan / Bush era. The world has seemed to ratify Obama so far, although he’ll have to earn it as he goes
of course.
This concludes the Polyanna portion of my post… ;^)
Do you think America’s positives still cut through the folly?
Where were the voices of protest when we bombed and invaded a country that was not a threat to us and had never attacked us?
Where were the protests when our president invaded without even going to the U.N. for permission to bomb and invade?
He did it with no intent to allow them to be free and with no exit strategy. We are still there and we sort of run it…actually the criminal mobsters really run it.
Or is this the forgotten war by a president that no one wants to criticize?
The problem with picking sides is that you maximize information that supports your side and minimize information that doesn’t. And somehow, the truth never quite gets into focus.
Oh yes, I almost forgot…he didn’t even bother asking Congress for permission to do what he did.
Hi folks,
I work for a radio show called World Have Your Say and today we’re asking ‘Are some countries deaf to world opinion?’. We’re going to be talking about the USA and we’d be interested to hear what you’ve got to say. Check out our blog at http://www.worldhaveyoursay.com and post a message.
Hello again – sorry I took so long to respond. You asked ” . . Do you think America’s positives still cut through the folly?” Honestly I don’t know. As far as Obama’s influence on the world’s attitudes toward the US, frankly I don’t know that either. Certainly he is making all the right noises and is a breath of fresh air compared to the Bush era thinking, but whether he can make a real difference – well the jury will be out for a while let’s say.
I do worry that he will not be allowed to make any really big changes. One thing I have noticed in listening to the US right (public media comments as well as my own ex-colleagues) is a change in attitude regarding the presidency. When the president was a Republican the whole country – right and left – supported him – at least at the start – especially in the wake of 911. Now he is a Democrat the right seem to be trying to undermine the presidency at every opportunity – right from the start. I feared this when I heard a comment on election night. The particular newscast I was watching was broadcast from one of the republican support centres, and when Obama in his acceptance speech said, “To those Americans whose support I have yet to earn — I may not have won your vote, but I hear your voices, I need your help, and I will be your president too!” I overheard a voice say, “Never!” with great, almost vitriolic conviction.
What I’m about to say sounds so paranoid and delusional that I’m almost afraid to type it, but I really fear whether the US establishment will actually allow Obama to do the job he claims he wants to do. I don’t generally subscribe to the multitude of conspiracy theories that seem to abound these days, but . . . old feelings run very deep and I’m afraid there are those – especially in the old money south, who will never accept Obama as their president.
As I mentioned in my earlier post I used to work for a multinational with offices and plants in the US. One of the plants is in a Misissippi – on the banks of the big river itself. At the time of my visit – only a couple of years ago – the plant manager was black. He made a very good salary – probably 10 times the national average – making him one of the wealthier people in the city. But there were still parts of town he could not buy a home, and schools his children could not attend. So -is Obama likely to be accepted? Old habits die hard. . .
For myself I certainly hoepe he can silence his critics, both domestic and foreign, and resurrect the US reputation abroad. I worry though . . .
Welcome back sherljim. I’m more skeptical about whether Obama’s actions as carried out by staffers, will match the lofty rhetoric. I was a Hillary worker in 2008, and noticed a definite trend towards Obama talking one thing while his staff was doing the opposite.
Time and again already, his admin has argued in court cases pertaining to war-on-terror matters, exactly the positions Bush did. The world will see through hypocrisy & double-talk and give up on him if he’s not careful.
Bottom line on Obama is that while some kick and scream that he’s leftist, in reality he is a pragmatist IMO. I remain unsold on how much he’ll fight for progressive ideals and policy.
I agree that racial bias is still present in America, but by my observations less & less so. I believe it’s a minority now, whereas 50 years ago majorities harbored them.
That was my issue with Rev. Wright, and Obama sitting there looking the other way on his hate speech instead of leaving. Wright’s rhetoric fit into 50 years ago, but clinging to it now denies great progress made in social integration and civil rights.
But Dems typically do support their president more in the modern era than Republicans do, IMO. It was true of Reagan and both Bush’s at the outset, whereas R’s never accepted Bill Clinton and some clearly refuse Obama.
Interesting – your comment about the differing responses from Republicans and Democrats to a president of the opposite stripe.
It so happens that most of my friends in the US are of the Republican persuasion, and when I talk to them they seem to feel it desperately important they derail Obama’s efforts as a matter of critical national security – the future of the nation depends on it.
Obama is seen not just as a person with a different political ideology, but as a “clear and present” danger to the very existance of the USA and its future.
Similary the Bush Administration were convinced they were the fount of everything righteous and had the attitude that “You either support us or you will be branded as the enemy” – allowing no room for debate or compromise.
Now – if I was in the USA I’m sure I would
not agree with everything the government did (whichever party was in power), but I’d hate to be branded as unpatriotic for simply having a dissenting thought.
I’m reminded of a quotation from Jacob Bronowski in his essay “The Ascent of Man”. He was commenting on the (extremely) right wing agenda of the Nazis of WWII Germany; specifically the atrocities perpetrated at Auschwitz. He said, “This was done by arrogance; it was done by dogma and it was done by ignorance. When people believe that they have absolute knowledge with no test in reality, this is what happens. This is how they behave.”
I’m not suggesting for a minute that we should expect to see concentration camps arise in the USA, but the same faith in the absolute “rightness” of their position seems to be present in some of the current Republican thinking. It disturbs me.
(Come to think of it – the US does have a concentration camp, don’t they – at Guantanamo Bay)
Keep in mind that in the U.S. there is a sharply right-wing press in the form of Fox News, numerous daily newspapers in major cities, and of course lunatic radio-talk hosts like Limbaugh, Savage and Hannity. So when you hear an American GOP’er spout off about the “dangers” of Obama, a progressive platform or their latest catchword “socialism”, they are most likely speaking from that influence.
Which has been proven wrong time and again in the modern era. Trickle-Down, anyone? Mission Accomplished, anyone?
That hardened segment is smaller now however. Some woke up and left the tent. It’s less than 25% of Americans now by the most recent polling.
That is a great observation from Bronowski. To many Americans whom never supported the Bush Regime, and then to many more who broke from it in recent years, those elements were all present in it. Dogma / arrogance / ignorance – they required all of that to engineer the train wreck of the last 8 years in America.
I think the world is seeing us in a more hopeful light than during the last 4 of the 8 Bush years. Because of the trouncing we gave the UN when John Bolton (decidedly anti UN) was of all things appointed US AMBASSADOR to the UN! Bush did this during Congressional recess no less. Here is what our AMBASSADOR to the UN said about it:
“There is no such thing as the United Nations. There is only the international community, which can only be led by the only remaining superpower, which is the United States.”[46] He also stated that “The Secretariat Building in New York has 38 stories. If you lost ten stories today, it wouldn’t make a bit of difference.”
So in light of what has already been done, I think hopeful skepticism would not be such an inaccurate term to describe how others see us. Yes, there is hope for the future, but where were Americans when an Administration hell bent on power was allowed to do all it did? Think about all it did. We are still living in the consequences, and strangely enough those who supported the Bush/Cheney policies now are blaming Obama for their woes. It was under George W. Bush (a son of a former President-a first), that the first bailout was signed for the banks. The first time a reporter was arrested by the government, the first time the military was privatized vis a vis multibillion dollar no bid contracts, the first time the oil companies recorded profits like no other time in their histories.
I ask you, if you were outside looking in, what would you think of Americans–even now?
Good remarks SMartin – welcome aboard.
Bolton was a “screw this” type appointment, of which the Bush admin had several. I may have some more to say on that later.
(…some of us didn’t like the first 4 Bush years either ;^)
This site leans to the left and was “advertised” in a blog. What gives????
What do you mean “what gives”? Websites publish opinion last time I checked.
Sounds as if you don’t have a good grasp of the right-left political spectrum, outside of the United States. Almost the entire world despised Bush!
The Bush era was a complete nightmare, week after week things just got worse. It is going to take a long time to repair our relations with the rest of the world and put our country on a progressive track.
Iam very very happy with the appointment of nobel laureate Steven Chu as Energy Secretary, and I hope Obama continues to engage with intellectuals. We need more academics leading this country, instead of the status quo of lawyers and bible thumpers.
I am some what frustrated with the climate bill and environmental progress of Obama’s administration but his foreign policy is a million times better then dubbya’s. Obama is saddled with many problems at the moment and I am willing to hold judgement on these issues for the time being.
I hope the world sees that we are trying to dig ourselves out of the hole GW left.
All I have to say is…6 months, 6 months, 6 freakin’ months. The current administration has been in office for about 6 months and people in the U.S. are bawlin’ and sqwawlin’ after they sat on their “patient” butts for 8 years while the “W”orst Administration in history tanked America from top to bottom. What Obama policies have made the U.S. worse off in 6 months? The truth is that it is absolutely impossible to know if any of Obama’s plans are good or not…we’re still paying for the worst! People complainin’ after 6 months. No wonder Americans are viewed as arrogant imbeciles around the world…
OK “Gates,” can I call you Bill?6 months,got your point.This mandate for change wont be jingling in peoples pockets(unless they work at Goldman “Sacks”) ,for years. ProgressiveDems,Grns,Msa’s,and other independants we wonder….Hmmmmmm what if the economy tanks even more and only the bankers and a couple of job exporting auto firms are the only ones “stimulated”? The loyal opposition has been derilict in thier duty,because the opposition serves the same corporate masters. peace
Great site but I feel a little “big picture” truth needs to be introduced to this discussion. First: the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than any other country in the world – roughly one million legal immigrants a year (they can’t all be wrong) and second: since the beginning of recorded history straight through to 1944 the number of yearly casualties of unbridled warfare was on an ever-upward curve into double-digit and possibly triple-digit millions. The peace and prosperity of the last 60 years (brought about by America’s hegemony) have been unprecedented in human history. Not to say we can do no wrong but please World (i.e. Planet Earth), try to get some perspective on your hatred/dislike of America.
Welcome One American’s Perspective. I can’t contend the world has
been peaceful during the last 60 years, and when U.S. presidents start preemptive wars on bad thinking – like Vietnam and Iraq that lead to hundreds of thousands of civilian deaths – America is going to take blame for that. We’ll do better IMO to own up to previous misjudgments and commit to being a better global partner & citizen, than to try to wallpaper
it over with self-annointment.
Technology is fast shrinking the planet, and the age of unilateralism is over. The 21st Century will belong to those nations whom find common avenues and do not fear commercial interdependence. It’s here.
America exports many things, both positive and negative to the world. It knows that and I don’t believe in total, hates America. It’s time to to repair strained relationships and reverse a failed laissez-faire economic ideology, that caused the financial meltdown of 2008 & ongoing global recession.
Hey, back to the question, can we hear from some more people outside the US ?
As far as the rest, I believe Obama is better for us than the past administration. We need to give his policies time.It seems the economic crisis is getting better, though it would have been a better jump start to give 700 billion to the public, rather than Wall St, but I digress. He seems to need to grow a backbone in dealing with international politics, stop apologizing, he can’t change the past but he can change the future.